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 10-28-2002, 01:31 PM |
#151 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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That's done on carbuerators, at the point of fueling, in order to
create a negative pressure and thus speed up mass flow rate of the
entering air and fuel. It is a part of the Bernoulli effect, and pressure
is lowered where the air would move faster. I'm not sure. Our manifolds are dry. But if it does apply then it sounds like it would be good for low torque but not for high rpm because the venturi would be a restriction if you were inserting material. But, if you can kept the smaller cross-section be the original diameter, and port the larger areas before and after that would not decrease flow, although I doubt we have enough wall thickness to make it work. According to my trusty physics book, the difference in pressure is expressed as: p1-p2 = 0.5 * rho * v1^2 [ (A1/A2)^2 - 1] where v2 = v1 * A1 / A2 p1 = pressure at larger cross section p2 = pressure at smaller cross section rho = density v = velocity A = cross sectional area  zzzz   |
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| 10-29-2002, 09:02 AM |
#152 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Cyclone butterfly control using AEM
EMS?
While you guys are pondering that one...zzzz Here's an idea. The AEM EMS has a lot of functions on it, for instance: external control of solenoids. Can we control the butterflies down to a gnatt's ass by using the AEM EMS or other capable standalone? The EMS can already be used as a dedicated boost controller, much like an AVCR with the use of a simple boost solenoid. The details need to be worked out on the AEM forum, but the theory can be discussed here since we make up the people that are interested in the Cyclone. Link to Dual Runner Intake Application My thread on AEM about the cyclone Ken Young |
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| 10-29-2002, 08:02 PM |
#153 |
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New DSMtalker
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Perhaps Scott Evans who has a cyclone
intake in his Gvr4 running Haltech ecu could share his experience with the
cyclone tuning. |
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| 11-01-2002, 11:13 AM |
#154 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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I keep posting links that require people to sign up to different
forums. My bad. Here is an example post I made on the subject of Cyclone control: There seem to be 2 questions then: 1) Is it beneficial to have the butterflies partially open during certain conditions to optimize torque? 2) If so, then how is the best way to do this? I look at the first question, and I think why overdo it? Open or closed as Mike says should be fine to snap the butterflies open or closed. In this case a simple open/close solenoid and a pressure switch will do it (although you still need another solenoid that is rpm dependent). But there are cars out there like BMW that use infinitely variable geometry intakes to optimize the torque. Granted with the Cyclone we can't vary the lengths, but we could vary the total cross-section (which indirectly varies the length because half the runners are ~9" long and the others are ~14" long). Each runner tube (if unported) is about 1.4" in diameter. When the butterflies are closed the total area is about 6 in^2. When open that doubles. Again, is it beneficial to have something in between 3000-5000rpm and whatever boost? You could step it instead of having the butterflies slam open or closed, possibly gaining volumetric efficiency. The butterflies would behave the same way a throttle body does. So then a pulse width modulated solenoid would be necessary (the stock BCS). Then the question becomes: is the EMS capable of working an additional solenoid (one for boost and one for the Cyclone)? Some cars have 2 turbos so I assume/hope the EMS can control both independently. It could be modulated based on rpm, speed, engine load, air flow... Am I going too far here? It sounds cool on paper. |
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| 11-01-2002, 11:44 AM |
#155 |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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in transtition, the butterflies do not snap open. they open slowly,
about 2-3 seconds. they do snap shut. i would think that partially open,
there would be enough turbulence in there that would disrupt the flow. i
have mine set to open at about 6 lbs boost, and i cannot tell when they
do. i can SEE when they do, because i have a vacuum/boost gauge installed
in the actuator line. from what i have learned from experimenting with
different opening levels, it does no good to have them open any earlier.
now, this is tailored to MY car, and MY driving style. for the most part,
i shift early, usually no more than 4k rpm, and earlier in the higher
gears. and i do a lot of just puddling around town, sometimes never
getting into 5th. but, on a long trip, where i can set the cruise control,
the fuel economy is substantial. also, during cold start/warmup, the car
runs MUCH better. |
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| 11-02-2002, 08:02 PM |
#156 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon TSi AWD Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: New York State
Posts: 405 Trader Rating: (0)
Crazy29187's Photo Gallery
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Ho chi inn, do you still use the solenoids to operate the intake? And
if so, do you still think it's the best way to do it?
__________________
Joe '91 Talon TSi AWD Ah yes, the snow has finally arrived... "It wouldn't be the Talon without idle surge. I will miss that idle surge..." Last edited by Crazy29187 : 11-02-2002 at 08:06 PM. |
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| 11-03-2002, 08:38 AM |
#157 | |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
it's the only way i know how to do it. even the jdm uses a solenoid to control it. scott evans uses a halltech to control the solenoid. how else can you control the vacuum/boost to the actuator? | |
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| 02-11-2003, 11:19 AM |
#158 |
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Super DSMtalker
Talon Tsi AWD '91 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 362 Trader Rating: (0)
Marq4g63's Photo Gallery
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Good thing is found this post. Hella long discussion on the cyclone manifold; which im trying to figure how ill
make it work when i get my "Cyclone turbo intercooled" 4G63T from
California.
..someone should really make a VFAQ on this whole JDM/cyclone thing. now i got some reading to do while i wait for the motor. later __________________ '91 Talon TSi AWD |
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| 02-12-2003, 04:11 AM |
#159 |
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DSMtalker
1991 Galant VR4 Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 102 Trader Rating: (0)
batty200's Photo Gallery
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Hey guys I made up a simple method of control on this on my own a
year ago. I took a used wastegate actuator from a DSm and bent the rod and
mounted it vertical on the drivers side rear corner of the manifold. I
then trimmed the rod after it was bent to meet the actuator then attached
it to the swing arm eliminating the actuator down there. This way it opens
much like a stock wastegate around 10psi of boost. Seemed to work well for
me. Later I will post pics in a few days if I can or I could email them to someone who can post them. Later |
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| 02-12-2003, 09:00 AM |
#160 |
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Super DSMtalker
Talon Tsi AWD '91 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 362 Trader Rating: (0)
Marq4g63's Photo Gallery
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lets say i just run a straight Vac hose, or use an MBC, or that
wastegate. How would i know when the butterflies opens? |
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| 02-12-2003, 09:02 AM |
#161 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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If you can't tell from seat of the pants (I don't blame you, there's
a lot of things happening), then the best way is to have an indicator
light. You could have an electrical contact when they open that trips the
light. Ken Young |
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| 02-12-2003, 09:05 AM |
#162 |
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Super DSMtalker
Talon Tsi AWD '91 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 362 Trader Rating: (0)
Marq4g63's Photo Gallery
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indicator light would be nice. too bad i have no idea how im gonna
make the light work.  |
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| 02-12-2003, 09:13 AM |
#163 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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I'm going to play with mine to see how the setup would work, but
imagine two small rods that attach to the Cyclone's actuator. You need to
have the rods so that they come into contact with each other when the
butterflies open. One rod could be fixed to the manifold, the other to the
actuator arm. The rods needs to have an insulator or be totally
non-conductive, except for the tips. You then attach a wire to each tip.
One wire goes to the positive battery terminal, the other to an LED or
light and then to ground. When the positive pressure and/or rpm is reached, the actuator opens the butterflies, and in doing so moves the rods so that they contact, completing the signal to the light. Ken Young |
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| 02-13-2003, 12:10 AM |
#164 |
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Hardcore DSMtalker
90 TSi AWD Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Portland ME
Posts: 607 Trader Rating: (0)
RabidDonkeyBoy's Photo Gallery
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reposting from the thread on DSMTuners
anyone care to tell me why this wouldn;t work. or how to make it better. also on second thought a MBC may not be needed, becuase a hobbes pressure switch is adjustable from 1-15spi.... if you want an idicator light just splice in a 500ohm resistor and a LED between the solenoid and pressure switch. __________________ 90 TSi AWD Portland Maine |
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| 02-13-2003, 09:32 AM |
#165 |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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you dont need to know when the butterflies open all the time, just at
first for setup. and you cannot "feel" when they open, there is absolutely
no change, the transition is so smooth you dont know it is there. what i
did was move my vacuum boost gauge to the actuator line, then you can see
when the butterflies open, and adjust your butterfly actuator via the
hobbs switch accordingly. depending on your driving style, open early or
late. just driving around town, i find myself shifting at about 3k,
because at about 2k it pulls really nice. after you have adjusted it, then
move the gauge back to the original place. you should also note that the
butterflies open slowly, takes about 2 secs to open fully. i also have
just a touch of knock right when the butterflies start to open. about 2 or
3 counts, and just a fraction of a second. so the knock sensor led just
barely flashes, not full bright, but it is there. logging it, i can see
the knock. |
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| 02-13-2003, 09:35 AM |
#166 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Knock
Why do you suppose there is knock? A rapid increase in volumetric
effiency that is not tuned for? Ken Young |
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| 02-13-2003, 10:57 AM |
#167 |
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Super DSMtalker
Talon Tsi AWD '91 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 362 Trader Rating: (0)
Marq4g63's Photo Gallery
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Let me get a thing straight and simple/
By running a vac hose from INTAKE(where?) = WHITE CANISTER(which nip?) = "FPR LOOKIN" ACTUATOR(which nip?) then that method should only OPEN the butterflies at 3000rpms no matter how much boost your hitting. Am i right?? All that soleniod, press switch, mbc to this and that just confuses the $hit outta me and makes me go so im gonna keep it simple & working, temporarily Last edited by Marq4g63 : 02-13-2003 at 11:01 AM. |
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| 02-13-2003, 12:15 PM |
#168 | |
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Hardcore DSMtalker
90 TSi AWD Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Portland ME
Posts: 607 Trader Rating: (0)
RabidDonkeyBoy's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
the way it works is the in unpowered state the solenoid puts vacuum to the to the butterflys. once the pressure switch hits its trigger pressure it powers the solenoid to Switch and feed the butterflys boost signal opening the butterflys. the vacuum canitser is there to aid butterflys closing and teh reason i put 2 vacuum signals with check valves is to make sure theres always an adequete vacuum signal on the canister, probably not needed, but more vacuum > less vacuum. if you want it to work @ a certain rpm, get a MSD rev activated switch an use that to power the solenoid. that would be 3X as expensive, and wouldn't help out regular cruising gas mileage.. plus if you have a turbo that spools later then 3K the cyclone would then be useless. having the solenoid activated by by a pressure switch assures the secondaries only open when they need to, IE under whatever boost you set it @ 5-10psi.... anyone care to add anything that would improve my idea? | |
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| 02-13-2003, 01:14 PM |
#169 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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I don't think opening the butterflies after 3000rpm (or some other
setpoint) makes the cyclone useless with big
turbo. The J-spec cars had 14b through big 16G turbos with this intake,
and they were not set to open until 3000rpm or higher. The point is that
the cyclone will be forced to keep volumetric
efficiency at its highest for a given MAP and RPM. But it has to be
tuned. Someone needs to do a runner analysis to see what the cyclone's long runner length/diameter combination yields for an rpm range. Remember that as you lengthen the runner and reduce the diameter you move the VE/torque lower in the rpm range. When the butterflies open the runner now has an averaged length and diameter that is both shorter length (11.5 inches for an unported cyclone) and larger runner diameter (double the area). So the VE/torque shifts up the rpm range which is where you want it as the rpm's climb. So for example you have a stock torque peak from 3800-4500rpm with a stock manifold. Installing a cyclone might yield a torque peak from 3000-3700rpm (butterflies closed the whole time), and then the turbo is spooled and the butterflies open, extending the torque peak back up to 4500rpm before it starts falling. In this example with a stock or 16G turbo you double your maximum torque range. Adding a larger turbo that spools slower (20G or garrett) will give you a torque that doesn't peak until 4500 and then drops off after 5500rpm. Now you need to extend the low end torque up to 4500, so maybe you want to delay the butterflies from opening until around 3500rpm or higher. It is also apparent that with this larger turbo more low end is required because of LAG (less exhaust flow to the turbine), and so the intake is not pushing enough air until later in the rpm band to require the butterflies to open. I think there's more going on here that will require trial & error, and rpm/time type of home dyno runs. It will vary depending on your turbo, displacement (those of you with 2.4L hybrids), compression ratio, cams, etc. Ken Young |
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| 02-13-2003, 05:36 PM |
#170 |
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Super DSMtalker
Talon Tsi AWD '91 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 362 Trader Rating: (0)
Marq4g63's Photo Gallery
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thanks for sharing that ken. I just made this from scratch. tell me if itll work or not. feel free to save it and redo the vac hoses by erasing them on 'ms paint' |
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| 02-13-2003, 06:07 PM |
#171 |
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New DSMtalker
1998 Eagle Talon AWD Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0)
Velo7825's Photo Gallery
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wouldn't an easy way to figure out your "open point" be to dyno the
car with the butterflies closed then see where you torque drops. then with
them all open and see where it picks up. average the difference or start
at the low and end at the high point (full open)? you would only need a
few dyno runs to set it but of course you will need that MSD rev thing to
set it for the rpm and a dyno. |
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| 02-13-2003, 06:31 PM |
#172 | |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
nice picture. however, as shown, that will only keep the butterflies closed. that cannister is a vacuum resevoir, AND a ONE WAY valve. you need to tee into the actuator line, and be able to change from vacuum to boost, so the butterflies open. the reason i dont like the electrical control of the actuator is because with the hobbs switch, it is more like a map sensor, and gives you transition depending on intake vacuum/boost, not rpm. this is also the reason i am going to the map sensor mod for my afc. the map sensor is a real time sender of changing engine conditions. | |
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| 02-13-2003, 07:03 PM |
#173 |
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Super DSMtalker
Talon Tsi AWD '91 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 362 Trader Rating: (0)
Marq4g63's Photo Gallery
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can u please REDO the hoses in the pic
=) |
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| 02-14-2003, 02:52 PM |
#174 |
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New DSMtalker
92 Talon TSi AWD Turbo Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Missouri
Posts: 40 Trader Rating: (0)
DSTRBO's Photo Gallery
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where is that extra nipple on the intake manifold? is the turbo in the cyclone motor different than my USDM td05h setup? |
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| 02-14-2003, 03:24 PM |
#175 |
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New DSMtalker
92 Talon TSi AWD Turbo Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Missouri
Posts: 40 Trader Rating: (0)
DSTRBO's Photo Gallery
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so hooking up the butterflies directly to the intake will make things
worse because of vacuum. thats all i've learned thus far. where can i get an accuator, solenoid, pressure switch or one way valve??? where exactly do they go in order? there are too many different posts with different ideas! shit! |
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