Cyclone Intake Manifold Question - Page 6

09-11-2002, 04:02 PM	#126
Gonzo New DSMtalker '92 GVR-4 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Broomfield, CO Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0) Gonzo's Photo Gallery	Ken, the porting pics look great! So where do I send mine, and how long will it take you... Seriously, though, I have two questions: 1) did you retain the old gaskets to re-use them, or are you going to make your own? and 2) do you have plans to have the manifold flow-tested once you're finished? I have no idea how much it costs or what that entails, but it sure would be useful information... Speaking of which...if I were to want something flow-tested (like my manifold), how would I go about it? I'm guessing the average machine shop doesn't necessarily have a flow bench, right? OK, so that's more than two questions...sorry! Erik A.

09-11-2002, 04:20 PM	#127
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	Thanks for the compliments. The JDM gaskets looked like I wouldn't reuse them anyway so I have some "mr gasket" or similar do-it-yourself gasket material for that center section. I would need to enlarge the stock gasket holes anyway so I don't think this is too much work. Basically my idea was to trace an outline of the original gasket on top of the new gasket material which will leave me an impression to cut from. But first I would enlarge the holes according to my measurements. The trick is figuring the tolerances for re-assembly, because there is side to side slop in the studs/bolts. This gasket material looks relatively thick, and someone even told me awhile ago that they used RTV without problem. Flowtesting would be awesome. It's hard to not want to do it, me being a numbers guy. All depends how much it costs at a local machine shop I guess. I'd be compelled to do the stock one too as a baseline and as a comparison to Kyle Zingg's numbers. We'll see. From what I understand they measure the mass air flow based on a known variables like pressure, volume and/or temperature.

09-11-2002, 05:55 PM	#128
ho chi inn Super DSMtalker 1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002 Location: denton texas Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0) ho chi inn's Photo Gallery	dunno about the gsx, but if you are installing the cyclone on the vr4, you may have to dismantle it to get it on. then, there are 2 long studs that hold the intermediate runners to the base, and i had to remove one of them, and replace it with a long bolt. getting at the lower bolts are a real beyatch, especially the one lower left side. you WILL have fun with it. if you are keeping your stock a/c system, you will have to grind off one of the coil bosses to get it to clear the a/c line. if you are using the cyclone bracket for the surge tank, you will have to grind the hell out of it, or it will hit the a/c compressor, and if you are not careful, it will cut the power lines to the a/c clutch.

09-11-2002, 06:06 PM

#129

Gonzo

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Quote:

Originally posted by ho chi inn
if you are using the cyclone bracket for the surge tank, you will have to grind the hell out of it, or it will hit the a/c compressor, and if you are not careful, it will cut the power lines to the a/c clutch.

Uh-oh, that doesn't sound good. Now here's my stupid question: what bracket are you talking about (I don't know what the surge tank is, either)...? Is this the large Y-shaped bracket that holds the manifold to the block, or something entirely different?

Thanks,
Erik A.
#206/1000

09-11-2002, 11:43 PM

#130

ho chi inn

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Quote:

Originally posted by Gonzo
Uh-oh, that doesn't sound good. Now here's my stupid question: what bracket are you talking about (I don't know what the surge tank is, either)...? Is this the large Y-shaped bracket that holds the manifold to the block, or something entirely different?

Thanks,
Erik A.
#206/1000

yep, that's it. the usa one is different. you have to grind down quite a bit of the part closest to the compressor, or discard the bracket. i like to keep as much as the factory stuff as i can. but, by far, the most difficult is going to be to get the manifold on, and to clear the a/c line. some said to bend the line, i tried, and immediatly, freon started to escape. the line is held to the compressor with just one small 6mm bolt. no way are you going to bend it. also, if you need to have the cyclone ignition coil and output transistor, or at least the transistor bracket, to get it to work. then, some say the ign wires will work, mine would not. i got a set custom made from kingsborne, 25 bucks, they are excellent. lastly, if you dont have the vacuum cannister, i dont think you are going to get it to work properly.

09-12-2002, 12:35 PM	#131
Gonzo New DSMtalker '92 GVR-4 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Broomfield, CO Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0) Gonzo's Photo Gallery	Well, fortunately I have the coil packs and the vacuum canister. I'm going to need to re-use my power transistor (a la Blackhole's pages), but I think this will all work. Now I'm just waiting on a phenolic spacer--I decided that I might as well install one while I have everything apart! I'm not sure how that will change the fitment, but I'll be sure to let everyone know. My one remaining concern is that my actuator seems to have a small leak. I'm not sure what to do about that one. Thanks to everyone for all this info--gotta love the BTDT school of learning. Erik A. #206/1000

09-12-2002, 03:07 PM	#132
ho chi inn Super DSMtalker 1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002 Location: denton texas Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0) ho chi inn's Photo Gallery	both early and late coil packs come on the cyclones. the output transistor bracket is much different, but you can make the usa one work, i did. the jdm bracket is MUCH cleaner. i still dont see how anyone can make the usa ign wires work, unless you leave off the cover, and the wires go all over the place. if you want to keep the factory loom and wire placement, you will have to get custom wires.

09-12-2002, 09:28 PM

#133

GST2EVO

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96' Mit. Eclipse gst

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Re: Porting Pics and Approx Measurements

Quote:

Originally posted by kengsx
Here are those pics of my cyclone intake porting as promised. I think the camera doesn't give them justice, but I have some smoothing out to do still. You're looking at around a 60grit finish, to be taken to 120grit, followed by very slight cleanup if necessary. Much more than this results in less flow despite what people think about polished intakes (bad). I've talked to engine builders and dsm people with head and intake porting experience and there is an optimum surface finish, but not too smooth.

The picture of the area near the butterflies shows a large taper down to where the seal occurs. Any black area you see there is magic marker that I used to indicate where I needed to port. Measurements are done using a digital caliper down to 0.001". Once I'm done, I'll post exact porting measurements, but on average its a 2mm bore or slightly more than a 10% area increase on the short ports.

If I remember correctly, the short ports are 9" long on average, and the long ports are 14" long. The stock 1G manifold is 11".

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/phantomknock/lst?&.dir=/Ken%27s&.src=gr&.view=t&.last=1

the page wont show.

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09-13-2002, 12:49 PM	#134
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	To view the pictures You don't have to, but the only way to view the pictures is to join that yahoo group. I'm not trying to get new members this way, it was the only place I could upload pics. Until I have another place to put them this is the option you have.

10-06-2002, 08:49 AM	#135
miketribal DSMtalker 1994 TALON DL Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: houston , tx Posts: 150 Trader Rating: (0) miketribal's Photo Gallery	great ideas... ive installed a cyclone intake on my gar and i am looking for ways to run the butterfly valves... besides this is a good thread about cyclone info i think it should get bumped up __________________ Mike "Tribal" De La Vega "The Lone Racer" Formerly a 1.8er... may she rest in peace. 1992 Talon TSI AWD jdm 4g63 cyclone powered... and yes my butterflies work... and no dont ask how... just enjoy the fact it does...

10-10-2002, 12:15 PM	#136
dsm_sleeper DSMtalker 1991 GVR-4 782/2000 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: OH Posts: 196 Trader Rating: (0) dsm_sleeper's Photo Gallery	Vacuum Diagram Can someone post or e-mail me a vacuum diagram to work the buterflies correctly? I have the actuator and the white canister with the US TB. Also which end of the white canister is 'in' and which is 'out'? Does it just go from the intake to the canister to the actuator? Last edited by dsm_sleeper : 10-10-2002 at 12:21 PM.

10-21-2002, 08:53 PM	#137
Mike_Black_95_GST DSMtalker 95 Eclipse GST Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 175 Trader Rating: (0) Mike_Black_95_GST's Photo Gallery	similar to 93 Ford Escort GT I once had a 1993 Ford Escort GT. It came stock with a 1.8L DOHC 127HP motor. The intake worked pretty much the same way as this JDM Cyclone intake. On the Escort intake, the short runners were closed off at lower RPMs...something about the long runners helping to straighten out the air flow and provide better low-end power. At 5,500 rpms, a butterfly valve opened up the short runners. On the Escort, I don't think the intake was designed for more "top end" power cuz there really wasn't much.

10-22-2002, 09:18 AM	#138
ho chi inn Super DSMtalker 1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002 Location: denton texas Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0) ho chi inn's Photo Gallery	cyclone intake the cyclone is not designed for more top end. it is designed to increase torque low end and midrange, which it does quite well. i have seen a remarkable increase in fuel economy, and feel a noticeable improvement on response off idle, and mid range cruise. i am VERY pleased with it.

10-22-2002, 09:26 AM	#139
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	I'm all excited about it, but I'm not going to be able to compare my notes directly with you guys. I'm bolting the cyclone onto a 4G64/63 hybrid 2.4L. Is anyone else with a cylcone doing this? Ken

10-22-2002, 12:17 PM

#140

GST2EVO

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Re: cyclone intake

Quote:

Originally posted by ho chi inn
the cyclone is not designed for more top end. it is designed to increase torque low end and midrange, which it does quite well. i have seen a remarkable increase in fuel economy, and feel a noticeable improvement on response off idle, and mid range cruise. i am VERY pleased with it.

What method did you use to hook yours up?

10-28-2002, 03:50 AM	#141
wira New DSMtalker Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Malaysia Posts: 67 Trader Rating: (0) wira's Photo Gallery	Anyone thought of replacing the butterfly valves with bigger ones?

10-28-2002, 08:02 AM	#142
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	The butterflies are oval, so you can port the top and bottom a bit without losing a seal. It will take more travel to do so though. If your really good at porting and fabbing up your own butterfly plates, then that will work. If anyone has a busted cyclone manifold it would be a good idea to section it up to find out the wall thickness. It would be a shame to go too far after all that porting. Ken

10-28-2002, 09:55 AM	#143
wira New DSMtalker Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Malaysia Posts: 67 Trader Rating: (0) wira's Photo Gallery	Kengsx, Did you find any great difference with the ported cyclone manifold ?

10-28-2002, 10:25 AM	#144
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	Don't know yet. That thing has spent more time on my work bench that it may ever spend on my car. Porting details are basically done. Next is a port match with the head (why mitsu ever made the head ports smaller than the intake manifold ports I'll never know). Then I need to swap engines after the rebuild. If I name a date I'd have it done, then I'll just be wrong and bitter. So I'll say that sometime before 2007 I will have this conclusive information If I'm 4 years early then that will be great! Ken

10-28-2002, 11:36 AM	#145
dsm_sleeper DSMtalker 1991 GVR-4 782/2000 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: OH Posts: 196 Trader Rating: (0) dsm_sleeper's Photo Gallery	Set Up I'm wondering what set up people are using for this. Are you using the white canister and a boost controller or what?

10-28-2002, 11:45 AM	#146
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	Who me? I'm using my own DIY canister because mine didn't come with one. All you need is something that flows one direction and acts as a reservoir. And some sort of boost controller and pressure switch combination, possibly used with the JDM throttle body. Not sure yet.

10-28-2002, 11:48 AM	#147
DSMturbo2 Ultra DSMtalker GrcryGtr Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Traverse City-BigRapids Posts: 1,108 Trader Rating: (0) DSMturbo2's Photo Gallery	sorry i didnt read through all the posts on this but i doubt this has been asked. so yell at me if ya want im sorry. but does the cyclone intake help on gas milage by any chance i could see how it might and wondered if anyone knew anything? __________________ Erik 1991 GVR4 1189/2k 1992 Eagle Talon TSI (needs home) 1992 Plymouth Laser RS AWD (SeaBass) 1992 Plymouth Laser RS AWD (the Black Car)

10-28-2002, 12:01 PM

#148

ho chi inn

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Quote:

Originally posted by DSMturbo2
sorry i didnt read through all the posts on this but i doubt this has been asked. so yell at me if ya want im sorry. but does the cyclone intake help on gas milage by any chance i could see how it might and wondered if anyone knew anything?

on my last trip to austin, 225 mi each way, i got 28 mpg at 75-85 mph with the a/c on full blast. also, car was over lean, as i had neglected to connect the fuel cannister purge line, and the small hose off of the back of the valve cover. my fuel trims were at 139%, as the ecu was trying desperately to compensate. this is probabaly 4 mpg better than i would usually have gotten at that speed. overall, i have seen about 2 mpg increase in city driving, but the best increase is driveability, increased low and mid range response, and ability to cruise in a higher gear and not bog. but, you MUST have it operating correctly, just connecting the vacuum line will NOT make it work correctly.

10-28-2002, 12:04 PM	#149
kengsx Super DSMtalker 1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002 Location: Delaware Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0) kengsx's Photo Gallery	Short answer: yes, gas mileage should improve Long answer: A higher air charge velocity will result from the intake's longer runners/closed off short runners. This will result in better volumetric efficiency and thus higher low-mid torque due to a thing called Hemholtz theory. More torque would initially sound like more fuel consumption, but what's happening is more than just more air being packed into the cylinders. What is also happening is a more efficient burn. Another thing is that when the short runners are closed, then effectively one of the valves is turned off (has less air coming through it), and most of the charge (which is increased) goes through one valve. This results in better swirling of the air/fuel mix and creates a better burn. Ken

10-28-2002, 01:02 PM	#150
DSMturbo2 Ultra DSMtalker GrcryGtr Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Traverse City-BigRapids Posts: 1,108 Trader Rating: (0) DSMturbo2's Photo Gallery	kengsx i was pondering this idea what about making an intake with a venturi built in the runner (runner narrows then gets big again) its my understanding that this would speed up the velocity of the entering air and therefore create better burn and voulumetric efficiancy resulting in more power? you sound like you know what you are talking about. i planned on posting a new thread asking this ? and i think i still might but any ideas?

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