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 08-01-2002, 02:47 PM |
#101 | |
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New DSMtalker
92 TSI Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Garland
Posts: 80 Trader Rating: (0)
BallBearing's Photo Gallery
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Re: correct butterfly operation for
cyclone?
Quote:
well......i just figured out how the controller work. i hooked it up to the JDM ECU, and i got the JDM ECU pinout diagram. it feels like it'll only open at WOT pass ~8psi. works great! | |
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| 08-19-2002, 04:16 AM |
#102 |
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New DSMtalker
'92 GVR-4 Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0)
Gonzo's Photo Gallery
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Ballbearing, congrats! So...have you noticed whether the butterfly
actuation is at all related to RPM? Your post implied that it's only based
on throttle position (WOT) and load (8psi)... Oh, and could you possibly share the JDM ECU pinout?  Thanks, Erik A. |
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| 08-19-2002, 10:17 AM |
#103 |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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i have just completed the cyclone
activation on my vr4. i used the purge solenoid, normally open, and the
boost control solenoid, normally closed. ran an input vacuum line tee'd,
supplying both solenoids. the output line from the purge solenoid is
attached to the output line of the white cannister(this port points
straight out), and the output line from the boost control solenoid is
tee'd into the input line going from the actuator to the cannister(port
that comes out then goes 90 deg). power for the solenoids is the purge
circuit, which is controlled by a boost pressure switch, set to about 5
lbs boost. what happens, is when you first start the car, the ecu holds power to the purge valve until the car warms up, then will only apply power above 3k rpm. however, since power is now controlled by the pressure switch, full vacuum is routed from the purge solenoid, normally open, to the white cannister, which pulls the actuator, closing the butterflies. since the boost solenoid is normally closed, and no power is going to it, there is, in essence, only one line active, full vacuum. when about 4-6 lbs boost is reached, power goes to the solenoids, the purge solenoid closes, the boost solenoid opens, and the vacuum cannister is eliminated from the circuit, and only boost pressure goes to the actuator, opening the butterflies. works like a charm. |
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| 08-19-2002, 08:42 PM |
#104 |
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New DSMtalker
89 4G63T Colt Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 30 Trader Rating: (0)
Neeedlez's Photo Gallery
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I'm not sure if i read the last post wrong... but doesn't this this
method require one of the canisters that not everyone has. I am trying
hard to either make the manfold work with some sort of boost control
method. or find away to get ahold of these japanese parts that no one has
unless they buy a whole motor. |
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| 08-19-2002, 09:36 PM |
#105 | |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
you dont have to use the cannister, but you do have to use the solenoids. basically, what you want is a 2 way system, one holds the actuator closed, the other opens it. the most positive way is to make sure only one of the systems is on at any one time. i want to make the transisition as smooth as possible, so the cannister adds sort of a delay. also, i left the restrictor in the boost solenoid, and one side of the tee has a restrictor in it, so when it switches over, it takes the butterflies a couple of seconds to completely open, instead of just opening in a split second. but, i am still experimenting, and i will try it with the butterflies opening quickly, just to see which one works better. all i am doing here is telling how i got it to work. if it helps, great. if you dont like it, dont do it. one thing for sure, it works a heck of a lot better than when i had the actuator hooked up directly to the intake plenum vacuum port. | |
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| 08-19-2002, 10:47 PM |
#106 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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Ho chi inn..... just to make sure... Im guessing since you are using
the boost control solenoid to assist with activation that you have an
aftermarket boost controller. I still have a pretty much stock setup on my
car and am still using the BCS. Do you think Id be able to use a solenoid
of some other sort instead of the BCS? If so, what do you think would get
the job done?
__________________  A friend: "You'll have to forgive him... he's autistic" Me: "Yeah..... that means I can draw good" |
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| 08-20-2002, 12:26 PM |
#107 |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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after fooling with a vacuum gauge on the actuator, it seems like it
needs at least 5 inches to close the butterflies, and 10 keeps them closed
nicely. if you check your vacuum while you are driving, you will see that
a LOT of the time, especially when accelerating, you are pulling a lot
less than 10 inches. so, the butterflies are not closed when they need to
be. the white cannister is both a vacuum resevoir, AND a one way valve, so
while the engine vacuum is varying between 20 inches and 0, the cannister
keeps the butterflies closed, and you get the full benefit of the longer
runners, better low end. when i hook up vacuum to the actuator, in line
with the cannister, i get a consistent 18+ inches of vacuum, until the
boost switch opens, then it goes to boost, and under boost, the
butterflies open. that is why i have 2 circuits, one to keep the
butterflies closed until boost is made, and then to instantly switch off
that one, and at the same time, open the other one that will open the
butterflies. so far, the car idles much smoother, when the a/c kicks on,
it has little or no effect. i notice i can cruise around on a lot lower
rpm, and the car will still pull nicely when i step on it, and when in the
higher gear, it is much more responsive; i can now use 3rd, where before i
had to use second, 4th were i used to use 3rd, you get the picture. if you
do not have the cannister, i dont think the butterflies will stay closed
completely all of the time, unless some other way to keep the acutator on
hi vacuum is used. |
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| 08-21-2002, 03:41 AM |
#108 |
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Super DSMtalker
MazdaSpeed Protege Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NoVA/DC/MD Area
Posts: 325 Trader Rating: (0)
vr4gazm's Photo Gallery
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Ken! You were supposed to keep this a secret for just the gvr4 guyz
 MIKe |
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| 08-31-2002, 10:32 AM |
#109 |
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New DSMtalker
1991 plymouth laser Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: usa, ma
Posts: 42 Trader Rating: (0)
turbophein's Photo Gallery
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i just read this whole topic today and i understand your two way
connection, i just want to know if you used your us throttle body or the
jdm, if you left the stock boost solonoid connected electicly, which purge
solonoid you used and which input vac. line did you use to tee into for
both solonoids, i just installed my jdm engine first engine period i got
it running i don't remember off hand how i connected the actuator but i
know i have a massive boost leak and i followed it to the power booster i
believe it is called, it is the big round thing on the firewall all the
way on the drivers side right under the fuse box, i never even new vacuum
went in there but i am only getting 9-10 psi vaccum, i will try to seal it
somehow, someone pleas help i have not even driven the car since this jdm
swap |
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| 08-31-2002, 11:20 AM |
#110 | |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
the jdm throttle body only has one port, and it does not see ANYTHING until about 3k rpm. it is like the opening is in a different place from the usa one. once you go over about 3k rpm, then it acts like a normal vacuum/boost port. i believe that booster you are talking about is your brake booster, if you seal it off, you will not have any power brakes. i am using the jdm throttle body, but i take all of my vacuum/boost readings off the the two ports on the intake, facing forward, right near the harness for the fuel injectors, etc. | |
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| 09-04-2002, 12:26 PM |
#111 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Late in the game
I wish I new about this thread a long time ago. Out of coincidence
I've talked to several people here about the cyclone install and actuation methods. I have a sketch of a pressure switch/solenoid method of doing it and also using some sort of vacuum reservoir, although mine didn't come with the white canister. I have the jdm throttle body, so shouldn't that take the place of the canister to smooth out the open/close time? I'm far behind my original estimates of installing this thing, but I still want to datalog rpm vs time and do some dyno comparisons at full and part throttle. I think optimizing the open time using load, rpm and throttle position will take some practice. Ken Young |
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| 09-05-2002, 02:44 PM |
#112 |
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New DSMtalker
1990,TALON/GALANT VR4 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MIAMI,FL
Posts: 58 Trader Rating: (0)
JDM's Photo Gallery
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Can you post the sketch of the way the pressure switch/solenoid
set-up |
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| 09-05-2002, 02:50 PM |
#113 |
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New DSMtalker
1991 plymouth laser Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: usa, ma
Posts: 42 Trader Rating: (0)
turbophein's Photo Gallery
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| 09-05-2002, 03:31 PM |
#114 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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1 year old DIY diagram
This is an email that I sent to a few people when talking about a
do-it-yourself controller way back in Oct/Nov 2001. A lot of the talk here
has made my idea obsolete, especially the use of the JDM throttle body
which allows a vacuum/pressure signal above 3000rpm. And by using one of
the stock solenoids as an on/off. I posted it here until I'm allowed to
post attachments. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/phantomknock/lst?.dir=/Ken%27s&.src=gr "I had included a pressure switch to allow 12V to active the BCS (and I hope the BCS is 12V not 5V but that should be fixable with a resistor...). The one-way valve is the fish tank variety for $2.50, and the reservoir can be bought at NAPA since lots of emissions equipment is sold as a similar item. The only other thing I'd like to see is an rpm switch. In other words, maybe the dyno info will reveal that the butterflies should be open above 5000 rpm no matter what the boost level. You would simply put it after the BCS. What this gives us is a fairly tunable system. The pressure switch controls the boost pressure at which it opens and the rpm switch controls the rpm at which it opens. It's not a 2D or 3D table or anything, but its practical for our purposes." |
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| 09-05-2002, 05:17 PM |
#115 | |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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Re: Late in the game
Quote:
i think the cannister is vital to the operation of this intake. it is a one way valve, and a vacuum resevoir. for example, if you hook up a vacuum gauge to the actuator, and the other end to intake vacuum/boost, you will see it fluctuating madly between 18-0-10+boost. the butterflies like to see at least 8 inches vacuum to stay closed, and when there is less, they seem to waver. with the vacuum cannister hooked up like i described, there is a constant 18-22 inches most of the time. also, i have a little lite installed that tells me when my water injection is spraying. this is set to about 6 lbs, and i can see the lite come on just as my vacuum gauge sees 0. so, the butterflies are just opening at that point. with the butterflies closed, the car runs MUCH better on low and midrange, especially on cold start/warmup. very smooth, you cannot tell the car is cold. also, i can lug the car in higher gears, and it is a lot smoother than the stock intake. plus, by using the fuel purge circuit, the butterflies will not acutate below 3k rpm, AND, they stay closed for about the first 3 minutes of running on cold start. you cannot tell the transition from closed to open, it is so smooth. with the stock intake, the car would feel like it was straining in the upper midrange, like cruising in 4th at about 45 mph, now, if i keep it in 4th, it is very smooth and quiet, or, i can easily shift to 5th, and it feels about the same. the only advantage to keeping the revs up, is if i floor it, the response is much quicker, in 5th it will still pull, but not quite as good, until it gets to higher rpm. before, i had the actuator hooked up straight to intake vacuum/boost, and i was not impressed with the operation, and felt that if i had a choice, i would keep the stock intake. now, there is no question, the cyclone is way superior. however, if you are going racing, this will not improve upper flow. it is strictly for low and mid range. | |
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| 09-05-2002, 05:36 PM |
#116 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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I agree about the canister, and I realize why its important to
"average" the vacuum signal so that the butterflies don't dance around too
much. I won't be able to use the one you have simply because mine didn't
come with one, but I think that any 1-way valve / reservoir design should
do the same thing as long as it has about the same volume. So I guess the fuel purge solenoid is a good substitute for my original BCS solenoid idea. The thing I liked about incorporating a pressure switch is you can tune the boost open point. I have a pressure switch for my water injection and its set at 12psi. I was hoping I could use that allow a solenoid (such as purge) to open. The purge solenoid would open if the following conditions are met: above 3000rpm AND above 12psi for example. It would be nice to be able to tune the rpm point as well. Cougars for example have a similar butterfly system that opens at around 3400rpm. Depending on the cams you use that point could vary. I'm not sure about the stock flow numbers for the cyclone. I've read the same as everyone else about only a 1% decrease based on a flow bench test. That seems very small but in practive it might behave differently, especially since there are long and short runners that provide flow. One reason I've waited so long to install this thing is that I wanted high flow. So I spent good money getting the short runners bored out 2mm, and I've spent countless hours with a dremel tool knife edging the confluence point near the head ports and opening up the inner area for smoothness and clean transition. I'll post pics once I finally feel like its done. I need to make sure they are all as equivalent as possible. So, I hope to outflow the stock intake. Ken |
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| 09-05-2002, 06:43 PM |
#117 |
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Super DSMtalker
1991 galant vr4 Join Date: May 2002
Location: denton texas
Posts: 361 Trader Rating: (0)
ho chi inn's Photo Gallery
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cyclone intake
my objective was the exact opposite. i wanted better response on low
and midrange rpm, and this has happened. i believe the difference in flow
between the stock and the cyclone was either
2 or 4 cfm, with the stock one being higher. very negligible. also, the
extrude honed intake was only like 4 cfm increase. that's what, $100 per
cfm? my car is a galant, and i think there is a distinct difference
between the eclipse and the galant, i had a 93 gsx also, but i dont recall
wanting to improve low end on that car. the cyclone makes the galant a lot nicer in stop and go
traffic. |
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| 09-06-2002, 08:30 AM |
#118 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Don't get me wrong I want better low end and midrange too. That's why
my turbo is a "small" 16G, and why I'm moving to 9:1 compression ratio. I
didn't touch the smaller/longer runners so they'll still provide high port
velocity. But I like to feel the pull after 5000rpm so I figure why not
have both? That's what the cyclone is
supposed to be for anyway, the best of both worlds. Ken |
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| 09-06-2002, 12:30 PM |
#119 |
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New DSMtalker
'92 GVR-4 Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0)
Gonzo's Photo Gallery
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Ken, could you share any more information about boring out the short
runners? I thought about it, but the complexity of enlarging all the
butterfly valves and ensuring that the bores are exactly the right size
didn't seem like it would be worth all the extra effort. Did you happen to
have it flow-tested? Erik A. |
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| 09-06-2002, 12:52 PM |
#120 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Cyclone Porting
I did some porting, and I had a profession machine shop do some. They
charged me $250 to bore out the collection section "short" ports, and the
middle section short ports. They did a fantastic job for the money, but of
course couldn't get all the way into the backside of the 180 deg turns.
That gain would be minimal. They didn't touch the butterflies or the lower
section because of the amount of time and effort ($$$). So with my dremel I started with an aluminum bit and slowly ported the butterfly section, moving to a grinding stone, and then to 60 then 120 grit bits. The butterflies are definitely the most delicate part, requiring a lot of care. I removed minimal material, starting at 2mm overbore at the gasket surface to port match and tapering it to the valves to 0.5mm overbore. Luckily the butterfly valves are oval, therefore you can take material away and they will still seal, BUT you need to be very consistent so it closes completely at all 4 points. I then knife edged the confluence points and opened up the "short" ports as much as possible without making anything too drastic. I also cleaned off rough casting flash areas in all the ports the best I could to make things smoother. Another thing worth mentioning is the manifold is a 3 piece, and therefore each lower section's "receiving" holes are slightly bigger because of tolerance mis-match when bolting it together, so that the air doesn't slam against a lip that caused if the holes don't line up perfect. So I applied the same increase to the ported holes. This all sounds like a lot of work because it is. If I had to charge myself for this work it would be $500 easy in addition to the machine shop's work. But I hope its worth it, and it sure looks like it will be. No, I didn't flowbench it b/c the machine shop's bench was broken and I don't think its worth it. Even though I'm not done, I'll post a couple pictures through a link early next week. This will put me at about $350 invested considering the cost of the manifold (cheap), porting, dremel bits, pressure switch, etc. Hey, at least its unique. Ken |
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| 09-06-2002, 01:01 PM |
#121 |
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New DSMtalker
'92 GVR-4 Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0)
Gonzo's Photo Gallery
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Wow, that's a crazy amount of work! That's what I call perseverance... I look forward to your
pictures. I had decided to install the Cyclone unmolested, but perhaps I'll wait to be
convinced otherwise...  On a somewhat unrelated note, I've noticed that if I manually actuate the butterfly valves and then seal the actuator port, the valves ever so slowly open. That implies a vacuum leak in the actuator... Does anybody else have this problem, or is my actuator shot? I'm trying to decide whether it's a big enough issue to prevent me from installing the manifold. Of course, finding a replacement actuator that's not attached to a manifold is going to be tough... Any chance that somebody here has one he'd like to sell? Anyone? Pleeeeeeeeeeeease...?  Erik A. #206/1000 |
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| 09-07-2002, 02:22 PM |
#122 |
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New DSMtalker
 Galant VR-4 92 Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 12 Trader Rating: (0)
spacecad23's Photo Gallery
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 Ok...Thank you all for this discussion. But, this is just too much
and I am still confused.
I just installed a JDM motor in my galant vr-4 with cyclone intake, although it does not say cyclone anywhere on it. I have no little white thing and the actuator is not hooked up to any vaccum. Now is the time to take all that info accumulated in the last few months and put it into one thread --> what is the best way to make this cyclone intake work besides the JDM ecu? I have a cyclone intake but with US throtle body. Last edited by AWD Terror : 10-10-2003 at 08:24 PM. |
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| 09-11-2002, 02:40 PM |
#123 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Porting Pics and Approx Measurements
Here are those pics of my cyclone intake
porting as promised. I think the camera doesn't give them justice, but I
have some smoothing out to do still. You're looking at around a 60grit
finish, to be taken to 120grit, followed by very slight cleanup if
necessary. Much more than this results in less flow despite what people
think about polished intakes (bad). I've talked to engine builders and dsm
people with head and intake porting experience and there is an optimum
surface finish, but not too smooth. The picture of the area near the butterflies shows a large taper down to where the seal occurs. Any black area you see there is magic marker that I used to indicate where I needed to port. Measurements are done using a digital caliper down to 0.001". Once I'm done, I'll post exact porting measurements, but on average its a 2mm bore or slightly more than a 10% area increase on the short ports. If I remember correctly, the short ports are 9" long on average, and the long ports are 14" long. The stock 1G manifold is 11". http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/phantomknock/lst?&.dir=/Ken%27s&.src=gr&.view=t&.last=1 |
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| 09-11-2002, 02:53 PM |
#124 |
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Ultra DSMtalker
1990 TSI AWD Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: ATL, GA
Posts: 1,618 Trader Rating: (0)
venom42's Photo Gallery
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When I tried to click it, it said document not available.
__________________ Happy endings are just stories that haven't finished yet. I gotta snap a new pic.... this one is outdated.  ~Mike - venom42@bellsouth.net |
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| 09-11-2002, 03:03 PM |
#125 |
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Super DSMtalker
1993 Mitsu Eclipse GSX Join Date: May 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 437 Trader Rating: (0)
kengsx's Photo Gallery
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Because we cannot physically post attachments I'm forced to use a web
link. The only webspace I have is through a yahoo groups board which I
own. It does require membership to yahoo and the board due to spam. Both
of which are free. I did try to open the file from my friend's computer
who is not a member of yahoo and it did work though, so I'm not totally
sure what I said is true. If someone is willing to let me post the cyclone porting pictures, as well as the pressure switch diagram I have on there (total of 6 pics) then that will solve the problem. Ken |
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