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 06-13-2002, 03:10 AM |
#51 | |
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New DSMtalker
92 TSI Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Garland
Posts: 80 Trader Rating: (0)
BallBearing's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
Man i just dropped the motor in today, let me tell ya that was the biggest pain in the rear, i should just take out the tranny with it, but i was too lazy to poped out the axles, but after 3hours of straggle i finally got it in. tomorrow i am ganna hook up all the wires. see how it goes. Paul | |
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| 06-18-2002, 01:25 AM |
#52 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon TSi AWD Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: New York State
Posts: 405 Trader Rating: (0)
Crazy29187's Photo Gallery
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Ok, below are links to BallBearing's pictures. I'm jealous of the RS
motor...
 Image 1 Image 2 Image 3 Image 4 And below is his revision of the diagram I made: Diagram That should clear up a lot of confusion. Thanks man __________________ Joe '91 Talon TSi AWD Ah yes, the snow has finally arrived... "It wouldn't be the Talon without idle surge. I will miss that idle surge..." |
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| 06-27-2002, 04:44 AM |
#53 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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Yeah, so theres a good chance Im retarded.... that or with it being
almost 5am, information is not sinking in properly.
Im looking at the pic of the white canister from behind the motor (image 4). The nipple furthest right goes to "butterfly control solenoid out", correct? Im guessing that its the black thing in image 1. If that is correct, where is the control solenoid located? I seemed to not have picked that up from what Ive been reading. Also, where do the wires from the solenoid hook up? The "elbow" nipple on the canister (furthest left)... what does that connect to? The diagram, the way Im interpreting it, is showing it not connected to anything. I assume this is NOT supposed to be capped off? Ive had this JDM motor in for a little while now although Ive only driven it a few times. This is the first Ive ever heard of this canister or control solenoid, so Im completely lost and confused on this subject. My car isnt running as strong as it should and wont go above 7psi... Im now wondering if that has to do with this canister not being hooked up. Like I said, its almost 5am and I made a point to go outside just several minutes ago to look at this thing. Sorry if Im asking you to explain this over again, but Im still learning about these cars and am trying to find answers in the simplest of terms. Thanks all __________________
 A friend: "You'll have to forgive him... he's autistic" Me: "Yeah..... that means I can draw good" Last edited by Disturbed : 06-27-2002 at 04:50 AM. |
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| 06-28-2002, 01:01 AM |
#54 |
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New DSMtalker
'92 GVR-4 Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0)
Gonzo's Photo Gallery
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 My $.02 (long-winded...) Alright, I'll throw my knowledge into the basket here... The "little
white canister" that everyone keeps referring to is, in fact, a vacuum
reservoir. If you're not familiar with what that is or why you would need
one, do a quick web search and you'll probably end up with *tons* of links
describing them being used for vacuum-operated brake boosters in cars with
aggressive cams... Anyhow, I digress. I think everybody's figured out that one line from the canister connects to the butterfly actuator, and the other connects to a solenoid that is not present on our US-spec cars. This solenoid *is* controlled by the JDM ECU, using one of the ECU outputs (I believe it is the same one used by the US-spec EGR valve, but I don't know for sure). This solenoid switches the actuator between atmosphere and vacuum depending on RPM, primarily (I think). This last point is important, to me--the entire point of the short vs. long runner intake design is to take advantage of the pulsed wave dynamics. At low RPM, the long runners should be used to increase torque. Vice versa for high RPM, where you want short runners. (If you have trouble remembering which is which, keep in mind that a longer runner takes longer for the air to traverse, and that low RPM's give the air more time...) With vacuum applied at low RPM's, the butterflies are closed and only the long runners are in use. The ECU switches the solenoid to atmosphere, thus opening the butterflies, at some point which I believe is RPM-based. The Cyclone manifold is a slight compromise in that with the butterflies open, air is actually allowed to flow through both the long and short runners--in other words, you don't get the full effect at high RPM's like you do at low RPM's. On the bright side, you get nearly the same flow as a stock manifold. So, the big question seems to be: how does one hook this manifold up to a US-spec car? BlackHole's page(s) cover much of the physical install, but not much is said about controlling the actuator. After researching the US manual (particularly the emissions section), my plan is to use the EGR valve solenoid to actuate the butterflies. According to the manual, this will allow the solenoid to switch around 3k RPM. The potential problem with this scheme is that the solenoid I mentioned is only found on CA-emissions cars. Thus, I'm not sure whether a federal ECU will send anything to this connector. It may be possible to trick the ECU into thinking it's a CA-emissions car (there's a resistor missing which is used for this), but I'm not sure whether the code is there and/or whether this will cause other problems. I'm currently waiting on far too many other mods to make installing my Cyclone a priority, but I plan to do it eventually. I will probably be installing a phenolic spacer at the same time, too, for good measure. FWIW, the 11-sec Galant that was mentioned was (until recently) the fastest/quickest GVR4 in the world. There are a number of Galants in the top-10 that run a Cyclone manifold. On vehicles properly set up to use it, I've heard nothing but good... Erik A. #206/1000 (I hate it when work gets in the way of having fun...)   |
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| 06-28-2002, 01:24 AM |
#55 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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I was wondering how this would work then with a US Spec ECU since
Deusxmachina got it to work in his car. I then read back a little further
where Blackboost said, "That canister is controlled by the J-spec ECU via
a vaccum solenoid. In turn it will open the butterflies at a set point by
the J-spec ECU. Because the American ECU doesn't have this feature, you
have to plug the butterfly actuator at the extra nipple in the intake to
make them work when boost starts to kick in." So, that should solve that. Now, if Im not mistaken, the solenoid is not equipped on our US Spec cars, but DOES come with the JDM motor, right? Thats what Im picking up from looking at *Image 1* in Crazy29187's post. Where is this solenoid located on the JDM motor? The canister has the 2 nipples, the straight one going to the butterfly control solenoid and the elbowed nipple going to the butterfly actuator. Im also confused as to where this actuator is on the motor. I looked at Crazy's diagram and it says the line is to go to the butterfly actuator, but Im not aware of where its located. Thanks again |
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| 06-28-2002, 02:44 AM |
#56 | ||
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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Yes, Im quoting myself. I kept reading over this thread and I think I
may have made a boo boo or 2 or some contradictions in my last post. So,
Im going to try and clear those up while simulataniously adding more
questions. Im so talented  Quote:
This was one mess up.... yeah, Deusxmachina got this canister and such to work on his car, but apparently not by how Blackboost described. Afterall, Deusxmachina said himself hooking the canister straight to the intake is defeating the purpose of the Cyclone intake. Right? Quote:
This must mean that you have the solenoid which isnt on US Spec cars... and IS equipped on the JDM motor. Ok, since you, Deusxmachina, have this setup properly, where is the solenoid and butterfly actuator located? If you could help me out on this, then I think that'll be the end of my question asking.... and also answer the question if the J-Spec ECU is necessary for this to work. Once again, thanks... and my apologies for MY confusion and repeated posting. | ||
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| 06-28-2002, 02:49 AM |
#57 | |
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New DSMtalker
92 TSI Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Garland
Posts: 80 Trader Rating: (0)
BallBearing's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
Yup that is the soleniod, looks exactly like a CA spec EGR controller solenoid. that is what i am working on right now, this is my guess, I have a CA spec talon TSI, there is 3 soleniod on the driver side engine bay, middle one is the FPR soleniod, and 2 more left over. on a JDM motor, there shouldn't be any emission controller at all, no EGR pinout. So i think instead of EGR they made theirs a butterfly controller solenoid. Because there aren't any extra pins for the Butterfly controller solenoid. I have a JDM ECU, i am trying to locate the PINOUT layout for the JDM ECU, if you have one or any info on it LET ME KNOW! thanks. butterfly actuator look like a "fuel pressure regulator", take a look on the image 2, right the to the coil packs, and behind the blue shop towel, you see a little "FPR look alike" with vacum hose on it? that is the buttyfly actuator. Paul | |
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| 06-28-2002, 03:00 AM |
#58 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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SWEET! Thanks! So, now I know where that thing is. In Image 1, you said that IS the solenoid, good,.... But, in that picture, its just laying there... its of course not where it would be on the motor. So, where on the motor is the solenoid located? Thats the part Im still confused on. |
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| 06-29-2002, 04:12 AM |
#59 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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Man, you got me lost on what you're talking about. It's 3am, so
instead of reading through it five more times and hoping my tired brain
can make sense of it, I'll just type stuff instead... The EGR-looking thing is the butterfly actuator on the side of the intake, of course. There is that one pic posted of the little solenoid that hooks to the vacuum canister or wherever. I don't have that. Just the white canister itself. I think I figured out three ways to keep the butterflies closed till 10psi or so. None of the three use the electrical solenoid/pressure switch method others have used. I'm too cheap to spend 50 bucks for a pressure switch just to make a cyclone work. The car is on jackstands waiting for a wheel bearing yet, and I had taken the cyclone off the car after a week, actually, and put the US one back one. I am now putting the cyclone back on to test. I had to take it off to grind it down to fully clear the a/c anyway. |
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| 06-29-2002, 04:20 AM |
#60 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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Sorry about the confusion... I found the answers I was looking for.
But, thanks for posting that anyway, it still clears things up. Now that you've brought up the point of hooking up the canister and actuator without the solenoid... Id like to know how you did that. Im guessing you ran a vac hose from one nipple on the canister, to the actuator, and then to the intake? And the other nipple Im guessing you just left capped. Thats how I think you may have done it, please correct me if Im wrong. |
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| 06-30-2002, 01:24 AM |
#61 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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I wrote how I hooked it up in previous messages. Three different
ways, and the "best" way was intake to canister and then canister to
actuator. Same way everyone with a canister does it. Problem is, it hardly does squat because the actuator opens the butterflies at the first sign of boost. So all the cyclone is doing hooked up this way is letting you get to 1 or 2psi faster. And it's hardly noticeable since with a decent exhaust the US intake will swing out of vacuum very quickly anyway. Like I said, hooking up a cyclone without being able to keep the butterflies closed till 5+psi is a waste of time. It's not a waste of time if the thing is already on the car, obviously, but there's no point at all in taking off a stock intake just to put a cyclone on and hook it up this way. Even worse when hooking it straight to the vacuum/boost source without the canister. I'd rather leave the actuator unhooked completely than hook it to vacuum/boost without the canister. |
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| 06-30-2002, 01:49 AM |
#62 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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Ok, here we go... My car won't get a wheel bearing until next week, so I may as well say what I'm thinking and other people can test it out. People have mentioned keeping a cyclone closed to 10psi or so by "hooking a boost controller up to it," but I have yet to see anyone say they have actually done so or even know exactly how they would hook it up. The Galant VR4 cyclone website write-up says something like, "You can plug it straight into the intake's vacuum source, or you could get creative by hooking up a boost controller somehow." No mention of how that creativity would be done, though. People have kept the actuator closed until 10psi using a pressure switch and a solenoid, but the switch is around 50 bucks. I'm cheap, so there must be another way. I knew there had to be a way to do it, and the white canister is the key. It's just a check valve, really. That is what keeps *any* air between itself and the actuator as vacuum unless there is boost coming through. If the car is off, the trapped air in there keeps the butterflies under vacuum and thus closed. The following seem obvious now, but I've never seen anyone write the actual hook-up methods. So, here we go. Three potential ways to keep a cyclone closed till 10psi: 1) ball-and-spring boost controller placed between the intake and the canister (check valve). Only boost over 10psi (or whatever the ball-spring is set at) is allowed through to then pass through the canister and to the actuator to open it. Otherwise, the air trapped between the canister and the actuator is seen as vaccum, the same as if the ball-spring wasn't there at all, while the ball-spring is holding back any air less than 10psi. 2) bleeder-type controller placed between the canister (check valve) and the actuator. This should work almost the same as a bleeder for a wastegate. With this method, boost passing through the canister and to the actuator is diverted out the bleeder because the bleeder is the easier path to take. Just like how a bleeder delays the opening of a turbo's wastegate actuator. The only other thing needed is a check valve on the open end of the bleeder. It will allow air to bleed out up to 10psi, but when there's no boost it will close so there's no vacuum leak. This method shouldn't even need the white canister, actually. The canister might help the response, though. 3) a spring on the arm the actuator attaches to. The little arm flips back when the butterflies are closed. If a proper-sized spring is chosen, that should keep the butterflies closed until x psi is reached and then the butterflies open in proportion to the boost/airflow pushing against them. I haven't looked at the cyclone closely again for that last one. Might not work now that I think of it, but it's an idea that someone might be able to improve on. And then you wouldn't have to have the actuator on at all. I have my $4 ball-and-spring controller ready to go to test, but the car still needs a wheel bearing first. |
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| 06-30-2002, 01:58 AM |
#63 |
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New DSMtalker
92 TSI Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Garland
Posts: 80 Trader Rating: (0)
BallBearing's Photo Gallery
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If you find me a JDM ECU pin layout, i can make mine work with the
ECU and see what it really does. i haven't tried the boost controller
method yet, but that sounds like a pretty good idea. maybe that is wut i
am ganna do tomorrow.
Last edited by dsm1995gst : 08-31-2002 at 12:12 PM. |
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| 06-30-2002, 02:07 AM |
#64 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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Right after I posted that, I realized the first method wouldn't need
the canister, either. The ball-spring would also act as the canister.
Although the canister might help response. It seems so obvious now, but it took awhile to link the trapped-air-is-seen-as-vacuum into the equation. |
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| 06-30-2002, 02:26 AM |
#65 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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Where could I pick me up a ball and spring controller or a pressure
switch? If I were to use a pressure switch and solenoid, do you think Id have to obtain a different solenoid of some sort or would one from the firewall suffice? I have a manual boost controller sitting here at the house. I have plans to install it in the car, but could try hooking it up to the intake somehow to see if it would work as well. Any ideas on how I could hook that up to test it out? |
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| 06-30-2002, 03:08 AM |
#66 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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Pressure switch from anywhere. TurboMitsu told me he got his from...
from.... crap. I have it written down somewhere. It's like 50 bucks,
though. McMaster, or something like that. ball-spring you can make with a 1/8" male and a 1/8" female little brass connector from Home Depot Motorsports. Then you put a small spring and 1/4" ball bearing in there. The more you tighten it, the more pressure it takes to unseat the ball. It's not as easily-adjustable as the famous ones, but it doesn't cost 35 bucks, either. Actually, maybe it is as easy to adjust as the Joe P. one. I'll have to call that the "Brad B." boost controller. ...or not.  The people who have used the pressure switch/solenoid method have all used a factory one like on the firewall. Like other people, you can disconnect those and then use them for whatever you want. Depends what type of manual boost controller it is. I posted how it should work with a ball-spring controller as well as with a bleeder-style controller. Bleeder-style is available from Walmart for $1.97, of course, but would need a check valve on the end so there's no vacuum leak. Kinda funny how I was racking my brain thinking of one way to make the cyclone work, and then two methods of doing it come to me at the same time. I can't see any reason why either wouldn't work, but I can't test them at the moment. |
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| 06-30-2002, 03:20 AM |
#67 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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The boost controller I have is an older Extreme model (I think). Its
a black controller with a yellow top to adjust boost pressure with.
I thought about it tho... Im not so sure it would work. The pressure switches and such you're talking about open at a certain psi... a boost controller would limit the flow to a certain psi, right? So, instead of keeping them open until after a set psi (say 5)... a boost controller would actually limit the flow to just 5... which in turn would allow the butterflies to still open at the first sign of boost. Sound about right? |
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| 06-30-2002, 03:46 AM |
#68 | |
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New DSMtalker
92 TSI Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Garland
Posts: 80 Trader Rating: (0)
BallBearing's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
it take alot more boost to open it up when you have something to limit it, like blow air into a straw with your figures pintch down the middle? does that make any sense?? Paul | |
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| 07-01-2002, 11:46 PM |
#69 |
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New DSMtalker
240 VR-4 Monte Carlo Join Date: May 2002
Location: Misawa Japan
Posts: 23 Trader Rating: (0)
jasonVR-4's Photo Gallery
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My car came stock with the cyclone, not
only do you need the white canister but you also need the little valve
that controlls it. This valve is hooked up , and controlled by the ECU on
Japanese VR-4's. Without the whole setup its not going to function
right. |
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| 07-02-2002, 01:55 AM |
#70 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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That's why we're going to control it with another method. I'm still
waiting for a wheel bearing, so I can't test. Since you have the real deal, what psi and rpm points does it activate at? Do they open at high boost, open at high rpm, open at high boost and high rpm together, does it open gradually as the boost rises or does it open all at once, etc? |
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| 07-02-2002, 02:00 AM |
#71 |
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Super DSMtalker
Former 92 GSX owner Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (0)
Disturbed's Photo Gallery
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JasonVR-4.... if you're in Japan, you may be able to locate a JDM ECU
pinout layout. BallBearing has been looking for one but hasnt had much
luck. Maybe you would have access to it in shop manual or something for
the JDM ECU. If you could do that then the owners of the JDM engines could order the necessary valve and JDM ECU and get this intake to function properly. Maybe not all would... but I certainly would. On a side note (question)... do any of you with a JDM ECU know if you can datalog it and get the TMO mods done to it? Or will that only work on US Spec ECU? |
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| 07-02-2002, 02:51 AM |
#72 | |
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New DSMtalker
92 TSI Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Garland
Posts: 80 Trader Rating: (0)
BallBearing's Photo Gallery
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Quote:
I dunno, should i send my ECU to TMO??LOL i think the the datalog is going to work, because the signal from the sensors are still the same, other wise the computer would function right with the wrong signal. I doubt they can mod the JDM ECU tho, my JDM ECU looks nutting like the US spec ECU, it is smaller, but thickers, has alot more resistors than the US ECU. it does have ROM chip on it tho. Yah, Jason VR-4 is there anyway you can find a ECU pin layout for me?? thank you | |
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| 07-02-2002, 02:14 PM |
#73 |
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Super DSMtalker
'91 Talon AWD Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 443 Trader Rating: (0)
Deusxmachina's Photo Gallery
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Someone else on here from Japan posted awhile back about the JDMs
having different ECUs with the three different hp/versions of the 4G63. A
quick search would bring it up. He said one of the ECUs looked just like a
U.S. version. Was either from the 205hp version of the Galant, or was from
the 220hp version, and the others looked different. So one of the ECUs
might at least be the same physical size, if nothing else. Along with a manual or write-up or something showing the JDM ECU wiring, there must be a write-up somewhere saying when exactly the cyclone kicks in. I know someone else said they played with having it open at various rpm points and it didn't make any difference, but it'd be nice to know what the factory has it set at. Wouldn't surprise me if it kicks in just like an EGR -- at WOT. Or maybe WOT and over 3000rpms or something. I can't see how the factory could hook it up that would be some stellar method that is much better than even a simple closed-at-less-than-WOT/open-at-WOT, or closed-under-3k/open-over-3k. The only thing I could think of that it might help to be open at over 3k at low/no boost is cruising on the highway the extra airflow might help gas mileage a hair, like when you bolt on freer exhaust and the car picks up a couple mpg. |
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| 07-02-2002, 08:04 PM |
#74 |
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New DSMtalker
240 VR-4 Monte Carlo Join Date: May 2002
Location: Misawa Japan
Posts: 23 Trader Rating: (0)
jasonVR-4's Photo Gallery
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I have an ECU layout but its in Japanese. I use the one from Vfaq
because its in english of course. I'll see if I can get my wife to
translate it. I dont know if you can data log it. Its the same ECU just differant ignition, and fuel curves. I have an E-Manage so I use that for data loging. We do have differant ECU's over here, for the differant model VR-4's. The 205hp computer is a big thick one. Then theres the 220hp version, and the 240hp version which its ROM has a real aggressive timing curve, and the injector map is for 510cc injectors(stock injectors on the 240 version). Ill get back to you guys after the holiday.(Im a day ahead over here so my holiday starts tomorrow)  |
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| 07-02-2002, 08:13 PM |
#75 | |
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New DSMtalker
240 VR-4 Monte Carlo Join Date: May 2002
Location: Misawa Japan
Posts: 23 Trader Rating: (0)
jasonVR-4's Photo Gallery
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